Without him asking for help in the warehouse attack she would not have been in the position she is now. That single night has caused Siobhan so much hurt since then, she had to fight so hard just to survive he better be feeling responsible.
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yes i agree iâve forgotten this incident completely where she comes back to inform him and warn him for this incident and the incident where she muses if damien was an aberrant would i be able to make that decision - is a huge development on her part and this is what i was trying to get from her character - reciprocal affection. But after reading so many chapters and seeing so many comments about righteous arguments for her side and how critique is never there on this side of argument this just escaped my mind.
But i take it this significant instance does completely counters my argument about her emotional arc with damien. Up until now all we got was majority from his side. And it is really enjoyable as a reader to see that develop.
Edit: And she can choose to not develop that way emotionally for her reasons and still be justified.
That was just my side of argument of how i felt as a reader for the protagonist
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I read your edits:
Siobhan spends so much time hiding herself and her history that she avoids asking personal questions of others before she doesnât want to lie about them herself.
She also has a lot less mental energy to worry about other people because sheâs drowning herself.
She told Damien multiple times that he could put off the research, that he needed rest - she pulled him aside and said sheâd do whatever she could to help him. There was the whole conversation about bribing the teachers if he was in danger of failing.
She also mentioned that she started having to remind him to eat more. There was a scene before their exams where she told him the faster he eats the faster he can take a nap and then she puts her jacket over him and watches over his rest and makes sure he gets to his exam on time.
She paid for his meal at an expensive restaurant because she knew he had no money. We know how much she winced at the prices before. But she did it for him without him having to ask because we know she feels guilty for him taking on this project.
But Damien might be having financial difficulties now, but to solve it all he has to do is wait until his next influx of pocket money. For him poverty is wearing last seasonâs suits and selling his horse for extra cash.
He has a roof over his head. His family is paying for his education. Heâs not going to go hungry.
His father sucks, but heâs never told Siobhan the details and she knows that he loves his older brother and that Titus looks after him.
Who do you think is going to feel more emotional in a relationship? The person with a lousy father but wonderful brother whoâs never known hunger or wanted for anything, or the person whoâs lost everything, known hunger so intimately that theyâve eaten rats and whoâs still operating on survival mode expecting to lose everything at some point.
Obviously Damien will feel more, be more horrified, have the emotional bandwidth to think about Sebastien more.
Then thereâs her relationship with Oliver. Again, sheâs not demonstrative with her feelings - even in her head she tries not to think about things. We know she had feelings for Oliver because she did - once - acknowledge how good looking he was and she lingers over his appearance and focuses on his actions in a way she doesnât for anyone else. She blushed when his hands brushed against her while putting feathers in her hair and then she ran off to suppress that and tell herself not to be a brainless ninny. She let him hold her hand when she was shaken and needing comfort. She lets him touch her more than pretty much any other character.
She enjoys his company, but she was always afraid of the smooth talking charm he displayed because, again, Ennis. She reminded herself over and over that she wasnât special, that he treated everyone with the same attention. She persuaded herself that gifts were just a negotiation tactic to make her feel more generous towards him.
But still, she did care. Because we saw how much it hurt her when she thought heâd betrayed her. When she went back to him to tell him about Osham and he tried to ask if she was doing well she ended up hurting and asking (internally) what right he had to act like he cared.
Siobhan is not like other characters in the books. Sheâs not honest with herself, despite her telling herself that she tries to be. Sheâs very guarded. You have to look at what she does, not what she thinks.
In her mind sheâs very rational, calculating and selfish. In reality she tries to save everyone around her if she thinks itâs possible. She hears a call for a healer and runs. She tries to avoid sacrificing stray dogs and castrates them instead. Rather than putting the Undreaming Order on the right track and then vanishing sheâs actually spending time with them and helping them and getting people educated.
She took the death of the man she couldnât save so deeply to heart that she remembers his name - Jameson - and always makes sure she has some Humphreyâs adapting solution to hand, despite its relatively short shelf life.
In fact, since he died, sheâs thought about him nearly every single book.
The last thing I want to mention is that although she knows running away will be safer and is almost inevitable at this point, Siobhan really doesnât want to leave the people sheâd come to care about. There was a painful, desperate line:
Something in her chest squeezed painfully, as if she really might just disappear, without the support and structure of the life she had built here. She would be entirely alone.
Beyond losing access to university she doesnât want to lose her friends. Thatâs whatâs hurting her the most, and we know how desperate she was to learn and get into university.
Itâs huge emotional growth from someone who was determined to go, learn, keep her head down and not make any friends at the very start of the series.
I have some arguments about the fight with Thaddeus but Iâll keep that to another comment 
Alright, the fight with Thaddeus:
Letâs go through it bit by bit:
He tries to hit her with a paralysis spell that will put her body to sleep. This would have had the fight over in one shot with no issues if it had succeeded.
It didnât work because the thing in her head screamed at her with waking nightmares causing her to flinch away so the spell didnât hit her full on and it gave her raven magic a chance to fight it off.
He knocked her down while waiting for the spell to take effect and softened the ground underneath her so she would sink in and not be able to fight him so well.
She turned her shadow into a needle of cold and jammed it into his ear, giving him vertigo which, as he mentioned, is extremely effective against thaumaturges. It didnât trigger any automatic defence because how do you ward against a shadow?
She managed to throw him off her and run down the corridor. He canât divine her because of her magic. She sent a decoy for him to chase to buy herself time.
She levelled up her anti divination ability by getting her shadow to absorb that magic. He managed on the fly to figure out a way to find her anyway. He then tunnelled directly through rock to get to her position - bearing in mind sheâd gone quite far already!
She chucked some spells, potions and rocks at him. He conjured up a suit of armour from the ether to protect him and let his passive defences handle the rest.
He threw a spell at her that was so powerful it broke her warding amulet. The next spell wasnât one she could deflect because he was guiding it. She used her new magic absorption in her shadow to accidentally cut him off from his spell (she was trying to cut his line of sight but she ended up severing him from his own spell, which makes perfect sense considering the concepts sheâs putting into her shadow but is also really freaking powerful and very much spooked Lacer).
She hid and distracted Lacer with her shadows and illusions and thenâŚstayed put instead of running off down another tunnel. I think this is because she was so scared of him hearing her or detecting her in some way but it wasnât the most strategic move.
He tunnels through rock and ends up practically on top of her - minus the armour which he had to drop while tunnelling. She stabs him in a way she really shouldnât have been able to (the void that is her shadow is really good at doing things that shouldnât be possible) and this surprised him because she shouldnât have been able to stab him in the knee. She also shouldnât have been able to take the knife out afterwards. But again, how do you stop a shadow?
She runs off while he heals himself. She hits him with the Dazzler sheâs been powering up which throws him off balance a bit because he wasnât expecting that. She then throws her detached shadow at him so the creature can attack him. It manages to make him bleed by attacking his face and trying to crawl inside him.
She makes a pact with her inner demon and leaves their plane of existence while he turns the air to treacle to stop her running away.
Thaddeus absolutely put on a good show. Against a normal person they would have been down in the first hit, no problem. Done, dusted.
Itâs very much a case of âshe might be weak, but sheâs seriously unconventionalâ.
Things she had going for her that he had no idea about:
- A raven stopping her from sleeping
- A very over powered ward created by what I suspect was an archmage (her grandfather)
- Her shadow spell which sheâs conceptually altered to work on magical energy as well as heat and light
- Her shadow spell which can be used to give him vertigo with how intensely cold it can become
- Her shadow spell which can slip past wards (and now can take things with it because of the void transmogrification concept sheâs added to it)
- Her internal passenger who can see spells on the spirit realm before theyâre cast which gives her a slight edge (because the thing doesnât want to get caught, either)
- Her internal passenger who can take over her shadow and cause physical attacks
- Her internal passenger that can take her to the spirit realm and walk her through to a new place in the world
If you consider all of this, is it really so surprising that he struggled? He was expending huge amounts of energy just trying to find and catch up with her every time she got away. She was coming at him with things that shouldnât be possible.
To me, narratively, none of it was unreasonable. Sheâs been working on her shadow for so long that this just felt like a natural progression. Itâs the spell sheâs always casting, the spell that jumps most immediately to her hand. The spell that has the most potential for growth.
If Siobhan had been facing almost anyone else, she would have escaped, unless theyâd aimed to kill her immediately.
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Suffering is not singular to Siobhan.
Some suffer less than her some more. From sheltered damienâs abusive dad to the newtonâs family (where their son got killed and they donât even know the actual truth of the situation , their reputation tarnished and their memories and mind botched) to people living in mires in actual poverty, to people who were living under that previous crime gang that lost its fight against verdant stag ( rapes and more horrors ) to a man who lost a reputable job, got seperated from his daughter and was tortured and imprisoned and a small daughter seperated from only living parent who actually cared for her to girl sebastian saved because she couldnât afford anything, ate a spoiled pie and most like couldnât survive the winter and maybe was forced to prostitution by her circumstances, to the prostitutes who were actually under bad parts of the city and faced abusive and horrible men and sometimes still couldnât save for healthcare (everyday), to people who faced actual great losses in all these altercations that happen in day to day life to the people having nightmares (not from aberrant) but they believe it took something essential and integral from them which feels a violation to them. whether this happened or not, they believed this horrible experience to be true. Their minds are distraught with nightmares and sleepless nights with horror in their hearts nonetheless to alec gerwin whose father abuses him emotionally and physicall so brutally and that too regularly that he keeps medicine for broken bones, burns and what not with him. His horrible life when the person who has the most authority over your life is someone like that. But he is somewhat of a bully now so very few people will feel actual empathy for him.
how will one calculate the suffering ? based on ehat was done to them or how it impacts them ( as if the abuse is more or less) ?
how will one calculate who to empathise with and how much empathy can be allocated to different people?
Just because Damienâs life was sheltered and he had an abusive father doesnât mean that doesnât impact him greatly , it may not be a huge deal for siobhan now that she has faced so much and is maybe comparatively numb.
But does that mean when siobhan was young and she has that ignorant father and she wants to tell him father you are hurting me but couldnât ( does that mean her heart suffered less then and more now when her heart was less numb compared to present but still maybe more than damien because he is sheltered )when faced with suffering that we are not accustomed to our hearts suffer and and our minds are distraught.Siobhan recalls her incident with her ignorant and manipulative father with as much pain as it can be for damien whose father is abusive and keeps putting him down, this is how a personâs spirit break and they stop dreaming and wishing for things anymore and donât wish to live anymore and are ready to bargain for any riches or comforts just to be left alone, for peace. Damien hasnât reached that point but a different person can still suffer and feel things more under that same punching down and same just abusive father and sheltered life. Titus isnât always there and even when he ihe tries to diffuse the situation like at the beginning of series at that party he came after damien was told that his mother has born only 1 worthy child and his achievement turned into shame. Titus isnât his knight in shining armour where he goes how dare you? stop this? you wont dare to do this to him ?
Breaking of a spirit is a suffering nonetheless whether its from your father who keeps saying cruel things to you whenver he sees you a little cheerful and sees his duty to put you in your place he thinks you deserve OR
losing your autonomy to your mentor who you trusted and who violated your mind (even when you were willing to do the same to others even knowing you had little skill and can very well botch someoneâs mind like red guard did to newtonâs family)
Her suffering is still horrible and her anger and emotions are still understandable but not ethically justified. (that is why i said this)
All those prostitues who are abused and beaten daily, still there futures are bleak and they know there is little hope for their children as well and other egs where the situation maybe worse, their autonomy lost.
And general public can be ignorant but people that are in power and position with so much experience and so much life behind them whether they are good or evil like that horrible scientist. atleast some of them have working brilliant minds, and hard earned skill set and have overcome difficult situations and won over life in their sectors. Scientist Hete is horrible, evil who has maybe experimented on humans and brought such power people to heel and dominate them. He is the worst sort and we want siobhan to win over him so that he is not there to cause more suffering to the world. But that doesnât mean i donât want that altercation to match and compete all that he has achieved and experienced and learned.
archmage zard is at his position and dominating all those professors and putting a strong rebellion stand against crowns and in future maybe siobhan and oliver.
I absolutely want siobhan and oliver to win this but this altercation should be as much intresting and layers with the experience that comes from this organisation and all the resources they have at their feet.
Wasnât it intersting when oliver and siobhan first met them through raven. They planned and plotted but so did architect of khronos with their free caster diviner to locator in that boon and attack on two fronts and raided their vaults and oliver could only save his book because it was in a different safe and his precaution or they would have taken that. their fight with morrows and architect were quite different because of the resources and minds that were involved.
Siobhanâs brilliance and wins can only be intersting and meaningful when challenged with same in her school as sebastien and outside with raven queen.
And when faced with more brilliance and more skill and experiences her losses can be meaningful and acceptable as well.
And lastly
i think i mentioned a time or two that i only (or mostly if i missed something) saw one side of argument everywhere and wanted to present the other side.
i didnât go to every comment and challenge and comment on their views and make them see my side as well.
I did say why thaddeus is so beaten up but didnât defend him and challenge them under every single comment with facts. i think their presence are as much important and they didnât need to conform to my ideology or views for them to be acceptable.
And i didnât say i disagreed with all of them, i saw all that and found this opposite side completely absent and talked about it once (at length ) under the last chapter in the restrictive section.
Both sides of argument can exist and be somewhat acceptable because of how different people perceive things differently.
if we canât see both sides and accept it then we are no better than ignorant fanatics supporters of siobhan like diodre and gera who refuse to see both weakness and strength (or good and bad) in her.
This is all i have to say and donât wish to go on this reply train any further.
And if this side of argument is not acceptable in this community then it can be deleted or reported by admin. That is acceptable to me as well.
I understand you wanting to present both sides, after all, Iâve been defending Oliver and Thaddeus for a long time in the comments.
My point was that I felt you missed a great deal of the nuance of Siobhanâs character when you say victories are too easy for her, that she hasnât changed and that she hasnât grown, that she doesnât feel things for others.
She is constantly paranoid, preparing for every eventuality, and even then her preparations fall short. She obsesses over her failures and dissects them to improve in future. She practices obsessively - she has given up her sleep and gets in 8-10 hours of purposeful casting per day, in addition to constantly casting her shadow familiar spell.
Itâs not that sheâs the only smart person in the world and everyone else is a fool. Itâs the fact that she thinks differently to other people, finding alternative solutions or jumping to ideas other people would never think of. Thatâs why sheâs seen as a genius when sheâs Sebastien. Sheâs closed the gap in academics going from barely passing to top ten percent to whatever her score will be in these exams.
She killed the rogue red guard agent out of her paranoid preparations - she knew that she put her life in danger to retrieve her belongings and that they could be used against her, so she made sure she could remotely get rid of her bag if she were to be separated from it. She didnât realise the interaction it would have with the space bending magic and accidentally killed him and the people around him.
Preparation, hard work, reviewing her failures - this is why Siobhan wins. She works hard for her victories. As a reader, I have never felt that they were cheaply won. Sheâs pushed herself to the edge of breaking time and again.
With regard to your points on suffering, I will point out that Iâve mentioned the difference in her circumstances and Damienâs before. I suspect that if we had points of view from the various prostitutes and paupers in this story then they would likely be much more akin to Siobhan than Damien in their attitudes - do what you can to survive and focus on building security. Always wondering how people want to take advantage of them next. Always suspicious of kindness. That was basically my point.
Sheâs still in survival mode. She doesnât feel safe. She does not have the luxury to indulge in her emotions - sheâs trapped on a hamster wheel, running to keep up, using all her energy to gain power and knowledge before her time is up.
It is not about who suffers more or less, it is about the impact on their lives. Damien has space to breathe, Siobhan is drowning.
Itâs important to understand the characters when you read them. This is why I sympathise with Oliver entirely - there was never a good time to reveal he stole the book. This is why I sympathise with Thaddeus - he chose the best of two bad options and he hates being trapped and forced into doing things he hates. And this is also why I sympathise with Siobhan, because I see the emotions she refuses to acknowledge or think about in the things she does.
I understand you wanting to make sure that people are fair to other characters, but you should be fair to Siobhan as well.
Iâm sorry if you felt these replies were challenging, my intention was only to clarify things that I felt you had forgotten in your criticism of Siobhan. Iâve reread these books many times precisely because I love her growth - emotionally, academically and powerfully. I think itâs very worth the time to look at her in depth and really examine her. She might surprise you.
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Well, just because i was criticising the characters or some things doesnt mean i dont like them. what i liked about it was already said about so many times by so many people that didnât feel the need to repeat them.
And my lack of criticism for oliver doesnât mean i donât have anything to say but he has been criticised for both the things he did and didnât do in the books as well as comments. What more can i add to that?
I liked the series enough when i found out you can access chapters from book 5 through patreon my greed and impatience led me to tackle the payment method for patreon. (because it sucks from my country sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnât with the same resources). I was trying different paypal accounts and cards from my friends and family to get the lucky draw, where it works. I was waiting with same impatience and excitement for weekly chapters.