I think it was mine too. I found the book on Royal Road, and when I ran out of chapters, I subscribed in Nov. 2022 to find out what happened next. I thought something along the lines of: “Oh, I’ll just see how this arc goes, then I’ll cancel the subscription.” It’s too addictive for that nonsense!
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I’m so nervous about the coming cliffhangers. This girl can’t catch a break at all. I hope there’s at least a small time skip at the beginning of the next chapter so she can recover a bit from the previous distaster before diving into the next one.
Why are you disappointed?
Bear in mind that this is a fictional world where the rule of law is much weaker AND that magic exists to distinguish lies from truth (one of the biggest pitfalls of torture in the real world is that people will lie and say anything to get it to stop).
Kiernan is a…well, I’ll use the word terrorist here because that’s the general perspective of him and also for some reasons I’ll spell out. Bear in mind when I use he in the following paragraphs I mean Kiernan and/or the Architects of Khronos.
His main motivations are to get out from the control of the Crowns and their scrutiny, to not be subject to a random draft which takes the lives of many of his colleagues and to essentially be able to build the power of the university. There seems to be no thought as to what would happen to non thaumaturges and I suspect their idea of revolution just involves deposing the Crowns and having the university take their place.
He’s treated minions like Tanya appallingly and loaned them out to criminal organisations and just generally played quite fast and loose with their safety and lives.
He’s been dishonest in almost all his dealings with Oliver and Siobhan.
He’s just kidnapped a bunch of young people and Oliver suspects he intends to use them to fight Aberrants, again putting their lives at risk (and probably reminding Oliver that that was likely the fate of his sister and his own fate if his father hadn’t smuggled him out of the country - to die fighting for someone else’s cause with no right to self determination).
I strongly suspect Oliver is going to try and get every shred of information from Kiernan and then rescue the Nulls. I doubt he’ll return them to Osham (he knows too well the fate that awaits them there) but he won’t want them available for use by people who he suspects of using them to harvest Aberrant parts and, worse, possibly creating Aberrants to be butchered.
THAT is what I suspect these kidnappings might be tied to, especially since we had a musing from Thaddeus previously that there were safer ways to induce break events, which means this information is known and likely being used by someone for that exact purpose.
Given all this, I’m not at all against Oliver torturing Kiernan for information.
This is completely separate to my feelings on torture in the real world. The information you get from it is not reliable (which is the biggest and most pertinent drawback) and people have to be trained in torture methods (which they shouldn’t be, given that this is expressly against the Geneva conventions - shame some countries view that as optional). Also there’s all these pesky little details about wrongful imprisonment and making sure you have the right person and all that.
However, knowing you have the right person, knowing that they are likely party to crimes against humanity (breaking someone to the extent that they become an Aberrant must surely count) and knowing that you will be able to determine without a shadow of a doubt if they are telling the truth or not - and also having torturers available - skews things in this fantasy world.
Is it ruthless and distasteful? Yes.
Necessary? Quite possibly. Especially with time running out for the kidnapped Nulls.
Didn’t we have a debate about the immorality of mind magic, which the illegal truth spells absolutely are, only a few chapters ago?
I get that Kiernan is a much more acceptable target and might have been lying about his responsibility for the attack, but I just fundamentally disagree with torture and mind magic like that and he isn’t being forced to do this it’s his choice.
I condemn Oliver’s actions here just as much as I would condemn the Highcrown for using it on the Raven Queen, even though he could justify it as trying to save his kingdom, and as much as I do condemn the red guards use of it despite their justification of trying to save the world from aberrants.
On a side note I agree it is ruthless for Oliver to do this and am interested in when he starts to point that ruthlessness towards Sihoban’s friends or if he spares them then at least people they care about.
We probably did. I think I came down on the side of “I’d rather he manipulated her mind than killed her”.
None of these characters have a modern code of ethics. Siobhan was disturbed that Oliver would be willing to sacrifice a few for the sake of the many and a better future for all. She assesses risk and tends to take the coward’s way out when she’s not forced into action. It’s sensible but there’s no such thing as a bloodless revolution. She’s the kind of person who will ignore the suffering of people to avoid bringing harm to people she directly cares about which is only possible when the number of people she cares about is small. The thing is, the more people she cares about, the less she can abide the current system and the more she leans towards Oliver’s way of doing things, but she’s likely to burn herself in order to keep everyone safe.
She’s also disturbed that Lacer would be so blasé about the slander of one of his students and the memory manipulation of his family. Lacer is amped up Siobhan. He cares about her and very little else. He’s willing to do anything to keep his apprentice safe but everything and everyone else can go to hell. There’s also an element of pride to it, which we can see in Siobhan from time to time - how dare they mess with what’s mine?
No one is morally perfect, or even striving to be. They’re all trying to survive and achieve their goals. To be honest, I often find myself enraged by morally good characters who refuse to do what is necessary and end up causing more suffering and death because they refuse to compromise their morals.
If this were a modern story and Oliver was a police officer trying to rescue a kidnapped child then yes, torture should not be on the table at all. The dilemma might be more about getting access to the suspect’s electronics without due process which could cause ramifications in court and maybe let the villain walk free because of improper handling.
But if he were a vigilante operating outside of the law and only focused on getting the kid back alive then no one would have any qualms about him hacking into the electronics, breaking into the house, whatever.
We’re obviously in a fantasy story where torture and compulsion spells are fairly widespread and there’s even less regulation of what passes for law enforcement. Again, recall that the high crown had children abducted from their homes to try and catch the Raven Queen. Oliver is a shark among sharks. If he pulls his fangs he’s going to get walked all over, likely fail to achieve his goals and end up losing people to disruption thanks to people being more afraid of his enemies than of him. It’s very hard to be a nice person when the bastards are all working against you.
Yes, Oliver is trying to overthrow the existing system, but he’s not going to do it by organising sit ins and trying to educate people on democracy and due process. I’ve seen in real life what happens when people try to peacefully protest against a tyranny.
I would rather a benevolent tyrant with dirty hands working for the people and working to long term put a better system in place where tyranny will no longer be the governing system than a dead idealist.
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I understand why he feels like he needs to do it, it is completely in character and as I said unsurprising.
I also find it disappointing because he is acting like another shark. He is not acting better than those he means to overthrow.
He doesn’t have to be perfect I am not complaining about the loan sharking or smuggling or vigilante action. I never said he had to be peaceful. I just find him choosing torture and mind manipulation too far for me, particularly as I don’t believe it is necessary.
Also given how little communication he and Huntley needed to convey that this was the plan it seems really unlikely to me that this is the first time he has done this. Though maybe I am reading too far into that.
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Out of curiosity, if you wanted to rescue the Nulls before they were shipped off into danger, what would you do?
I’m having one of those “I was never properly educated” Siobhan moments.
Is there any reason why a very careful and precise thaumaturge couldn’t cast through a circle made from their mouth? Or possibly their tongue, rolled up or curled back on itself? You’re not casting through your flesh, after all, no more so than casting through a circle made of your fingers. It feels like one of those things, like casting through your feet, that most people wouldn’t really consider. But would it be feasible?
@AzaleaEllis is this spoilers or can you tell me if it’s theoretically doable? 
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If you are sacrificing light for the spell then maybe? I wouldn’t try it with heat as the sacrifice though!
Could be a thing like casting with the conduit against other parts of the skin, most people don’t think/believe its possible so they never try or find it too difficult if they do try?
Theoretically the heat from your breath can power many esoteric spells so I don’t see why not.
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I’m not saying that is sounds impossible, just that it’d likely depend on what sort of spell you are casting and what power level it is potentially, but even with that I personally wouldn’t want to given how many warnings there are in the books about having parts of your body inside the sacrifice circle
And what’s the actual use of the Circle ?
I’m not sure if has been explained anywhere in the story but to me it sounds like requiring a circle is another mental block. Like, gestura spells don’t use a circle for example.
So to me it sounds like it’s more of a concept to help binding magic to reality than an actual hard requirement, though if it’s possible it might be exponentially hard to simply will a spell into existence without using a circle.
Edit: to add onto that:
The Archmage can do it. The theory is that you are literally shooting the Circle and its Word at the target. It is so hard, and requires so much power, that most sorcerers will never succeed at it in their lives, and indeed, most do not truly attempt to do so.
ch 20
Clearly the circle doesn’t need to be physical.
And it got me thinking about how magic is used in the first place, why human seem to need a conduit to not become crazy, what does a conduit actually do …
Aberrants cannot cast spells. Like a magical beast, they propagate only their own inherent effect, simple or complex as it might be.
Like, both still use magic so what’s different ?
What about being from the elemental planes ?
Ye-es, but when your fingers are the circle is it that materially different to having your mouth be the circle?
It might be tricky to keep your mouth a circle while chanting the initial incantation, but if you can manage that….
She’s currently got her ankle inside a circle at all times while she’s casting her shadow spell.
Obviously there’s a risk of giving yourself chills from breathing cold air as you sacrifice the heat going in and out of your breath, but if you’re desperate and have no other way out…
I wonder if this would get me included on the (magical) dumb ways to die list.
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That’s what I was worried about too, it feels like a needlessly higher risk option. If you have no other way to make a circle and if you don’t cast you’d die anyway, then I’d try doing so!
I’m just going to casually drop this in here. Book Goblin is the best!
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Honestly, I started reading Elisabeth’s books after watching her meme videos. Book goblin is amazing, but when you have the genres discussing their love lives it’s just peak comedy
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I’m going to need to know which of her books that one is… 
pretty please?
The romance genres discuss is this playlist:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp2rdT0vHSlEvjderiN_wEsDILwCZEoMX&si=D8vTuSVmeV0I_6UV
This is the latest video:
From her books I read the Daindreth’s assassin series, Bastard’s Honor and the new Tears of the Wolf book.
I’d rate her stuff as solidly ok. Her characters are well thought out and her plots are pretty decent. I think her writing has improved with time and experience. Considering how picky I’ve been with books recently (and how large my DNF pile is growing), I think she’s done well for me to actually finish her books beginning to end. No egregious stupidity from characters!
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Alright, I’m back with a new theory (maybe not crackpot, I believe in this one).
You know how I was talking about using shards of glass for her shadow ravens’ talons?
It occurred to me that that might, in fact, be totally unnecessary.
Recall the fight with Lacer. Remember how when the creature took over her shadow it tore Lacer’s face open? Blood splattering across the inside of his helmet and all?
Recall also that the creature pushed the idea of the void onto her - the void is ever hungry, unsated and insatiable.
I made a comment some time ago about how mass and energy are interchangeable, there’s also comments in the book about how it’s possible to use things like bread and wax as energy sources. It’s just conceptually trickier.
Well, the shadow swallows up light, sound, heat, magic…why not physical matter? Why not flesh?
Talons of void rending their way through defences both magical and mundane and through the human beneath.
This one spell could be even more seriously OP than it already is. I love it.
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Well, I just bought all the books off AzaleaEllis.com, via bookfunnel, hope that means she gets more of the $$ than via Amazon! Little bit of a pain when bookfunnel wouldn’t send it to kindle, forced to update my kindle app… then a 20 min delay before book showed up… then no cover showing until next day… But 1 day later, books appear to be in my phone kindle app correctly for normal consumption!
I read everything before through the Patreon web page links, but this is for SURE a story I will reread more than once, so I’m happy to now have the ebooks also! I’m already 40% through book2 again, loving it again, seeing more things this time!
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